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Floyd Toole talk mentioning KEF 105.2 as "mediocre"

 
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eschenborn
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Location: Berlin, DE

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:28 pm    Post subject: Floyd Toole talk mentioning KEF 105.2 as "mediocre" Reply with quote

hi all fellow KEF lovers,

I found this video recording in another forum regarding audio. interesting elaborations re directivity. severe 105 bashing from min 27:50 on ("mediocre" because of bad off-axis response, bad listening test results). I find these speakers pretty impressive (nothing mediocre to my eyes). but I also do not unterstand all matter discussed by Toole in its full extent. what do you guys think of that? is it just disguised publicity?

https://youtu.be/zrpUDuUtxPM

thanks! eschenborn
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a speaker that consistently came top of 70 odd competitor comparisons in its Hi Fi Choice days, and was described as probably the best moving coil model in the world in American Hi Fidelity magazine. So if you think this guy knows what he's talking about just because he's behind a podium that's up to you.

Toole is basically an off axis fascist and dismisses everything else that does not agree with his theory no matter how good it may sound.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, lets be a little more objective. His method is to do listening tests with random material and get scores of what most people like the most and then measure various off axis response and say that is how a speaker MUST measure because we've done a scientific experiment as to what most people like.

Firstly he likes mono and says this extrapolates to stereo. I would say a mono speaker is much further from side walls from a stereo pair and thus the reflection problem would be minimised or at least different.

Secondly there is no comparison to live sound, and it's basically the same as most reviews where you put on your favourite music and then say that this or that equipment is superior because you like it on this track or that track.

Thirdly he ignores anything that does not meet his criteria despite how good it may sound, which is just head in the sand as far as I can see and hardly scientific.

Many years ago the BBC designed a series of monitors with the most remarkable advantage of having real artists and orchestras in the hall next door to the studio, no hifi company has ever had a cost no object advantage like that. Every colouration was reported back by producers and the engineers investigated and put right. Kef built those monitors and used the experience in their own designs and kept to the live sound comparison philosophy. I have found through these speakers that they also gave the best results on studio productions of most other types of music, even if they highlighted the bad recordings as unacceptable. But the hit rate of most good recordings sounding great maintained, they just sound right and do not tire over time. Once you break that link with live sound, you have a coloured speaker that may sound good on some things but likely to sound bad on far more things. If you are not interested in live or acoustic sound fair enough, enjoy what you like, but you'll end up spending a lot on new speakers to randomly sound good on your changing tastes and fashions in recordings.

Where are the Toole type Harman speakers that have achieved cult status around the world? In the end he works for a commercial organisation interested in it's bottom line like any other, so disguised publicity is a good phrase.

My 2 cents.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly the High Fidelity review mentioned earlier has some off axis curves including average front hemispherical response and average omnidirectional response that are a lot smoother and nothing like his 60 degree graph. Besides a room graph with no mention of placement and how it can affect the result is pretty worthless.
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eschenborn
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Location: Berlin, DE

PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi audiolabtower,

thanks for your reply. that's clarifying things a bit. I was too young when the first R105s were reviewed, no recollection Smile

I posted this link here because I thought it sounded like a sort of old feud between guys who had long worked together, and where if not here could I inquire about that. Speakerguru might even know him personally Smile

I am very happy with my 105's, so I was a bit surprised by hearing them trashed. what Toole says at least sounded like it coudl make sense. but it also sounded very much like advertising disguised as science.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The theory is sound, a smooth off axis dispersion is good. But if you have a coloured speaker with smooth off axis response it's still a coloured speaker, so it is not the only or main requisite of a great design. And without regard to room placement and treatment which will probably affect the sound far more just tunnel vision.
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eschenborn
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks audiolabtower, sounds convincing!
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speakerguru
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2021 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's oversimplified, I think, to make his point. KEF technical director Laurie Fincham and Floyd were friends and had many discussions re speaker directivity and room interaction.

Unfairly, Floyd does not state that the 105|2 was one of the first loudspeakers that actually did pay attention to the phase of drivers over their entire crossover region in order to precisely control the off axis roll-off! This was the famous target function approach, as described in KEF Topics.

At that time Floyd had not propounded his "smooth mean-hemi-spherical response" ideas yet. When he had, they were keenly taken up by the Engineering dept at KEF, so much so, that all later Reference Series were designed to have a smooth on axis response with a smooth off axis roll-off too. This was only possible by developing the target function approach and improving all the computer optimisation routines. No other manufacturer at that time came even close to attempting this.
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audiolabtower
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough SG, but a strange friend to describe your flagship as mediocre.
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